14 | Soul Tarot for here and now with Lindsay Mack
Welcome, Magical Being! Today I'm bringing you a conversation with my Tarot teacher, the one and only Lindsay Mack!
Lindsay is the creator of the Soul Tarot approach to reading the Tarot, the creator of the wildly popular Tarot for the Wild Soul podcast and the Soul Tarot school (that includes their wonderful Soul Tarot Membership, which I'm a member of - come and join us!). They are also an author of the book "Tarot for the Wild Soul" and the Soul Tarot deck (illustrated by Chelsea Granger). Both are launching in May 2026.
The book and deck are published by a mass-market publisher, so you can find them in many places around the world, but if you are in the UK, I invite you to my shop Las Vistas, where you can pre-order them (or buy straight away, depending when you landed here). As a listener to this podcast, you can use the code PODCAST10 at checkout for 10% off your purchase.
Tarot for the Wild Soul book at Las Vistas
You can also listen to the book as an audiobook (read by Lindsay!). You'll find it wherever you listen to audiobooks but if you haven't got a favourite service yet, I recommend Libro.fm (an affiliate link) - an ethical US-based social purpose corporation and certified B-corp.
In this episode, we talk reading Tarot for here and now, i.e. what the Soul Tarot approach is about; Lindsay's pathway to this work and their recent wobbles whether they should leave the world of professional Tarot work; the process of book and deck creation (and why Lindsay's deck has no people in it) and many other things.
We also mentioned other folks' work and here are the links:
Charlie Claire Burgess "Radical Tarot"
Chase Voorhees' Tarot of the Holy Spectrum deck (you can also buy it from my shop in the UK: the Classic edition here and the Infinity edition here)
Mari in the Sky's The Gentle Tarot (you can also buy it from my shop in the UK here)
Devany Amber Wolfe's upcoming The Fertile Void deck and Illuminated magazine
Host: Gosia Rokicka of Las Vistas Tarot & More
Guest: Lindsay Mack of Tarot for the Wild Soul
To be up to date with Las Vistas Tarot & More news, join the inner circle and sign up to the newsletter.
Disclaimer:
Tarot readers, healers and practitioners of "woo" can offer valuable support, but they’re not substitutes for licensed mental‑health professionals. Listeners needing therapeutic help should seek accredited counsellors.
Mentioned in this episode:
The Tarot Fayre | 18 July 2026 | Brighton, UK
Come to The Tarot Fayre on Saturday 18 July in Brighton, UK. Book your tickets here: https://thetarotfayre.co.uk/tickets/ and, until 31 May, use the code TAROTANDMORE at checkout for £5 off. See you in Brighton in July!
Transcript
Hello, magical beings and creatures of the forest.
Speaker:This is Kosha, the host of the Tarot and More podcast.
Speaker:Welcome.
Speaker:Today I have a super special episode for you.
Speaker:I mean, I can't wait for you to hear this
Speaker:conversation.
Speaker:My guest today is the one and only Lindsay Mack, my Tarot teacher and someone I really,
Speaker:really appreciate and admire a lot.
Speaker:And the conversation we had is absolutely wonderful.
Speaker:I mean, Lindsay is always full of wisdom, full of beautiful thoughts and inspiration.
Speaker:And her way of reading Tarot is very particular, very special and resonates with me
Speaker:a lot.
Speaker:And I'm very happy to bring it to you.
Speaker:I mean,
Speaker:I think that probably many of you know Lindsay very well.
Speaker:Lindsay Mack is a podcaster and I'm sure that if you are listening to Tarot and More,
Speaker:there is no way you've never heard of Tarot for the Wild Soul because this is probably the
Speaker:first podcast that comes up in podcast apps when you look for Tarot.
Speaker:At least that is what happened to me few years ago.
Speaker:But if you somehow never listen to Tarot for the Wild Soul,
Speaker:if you've never encountered Lindsay before, that you are in for a treat.
Speaker:I mean, I'm jealous almost because,
Speaker:yeah, it's an absolutely wonderful person to listen to.
Speaker:And on the top of it, Lindsay is going to be a published author as of next week.
Speaker:They wrote a book called Tarot for the Wild Soul,
Speaker:obviously,
Speaker:and it's a beautiful introduction to the method of Soul Tarot, method of reading the
Speaker:cards.
Speaker:And I can't tell you more about the book itself because I haven't read it yet.
Speaker:The publication date, the launch date is 19th of May in the States and in the UK it's
Speaker:actually 4th of June.
Speaker:And there is also a deck which Lindsay designed and Chelsea Granger illustrated.
Speaker:And the guidebook was also written by Lindsay.
Speaker:And the deck is also coming out on 19th of May in the US and on the 21st of May in the UK.
Speaker:I don't know, don't ask me what's going on with those dates.
Speaker:So if you are in the US you can get the book very soon.
Speaker:If you are in the uk,
Speaker:that will be a few days later.
Speaker:And I'm gonna tell you at the end of the episode everything about where to buy the
Speaker:book.
Speaker:And you will also,
Speaker:you know, obviously Lindsay and I talk about it as well.
Speaker:But I just want to, as a heads up, just want to say if you are in the uk, you will be able
Speaker:to buy this book and the deck from my shop, Las Vistas.
Speaker:And they are already on pre Order now.
Speaker:All the links are in the show notes.
Speaker:Everything,
Speaker:all the details will be at the end of the episode.
Speaker:So now, without further ado, please listen to Lindsay Mack.
Speaker:Hello, Lindsay.
Speaker:Oh my God. Hello.
Speaker:Thank you for having me.
Speaker:No problem.
Speaker:Thank you for, thank you for accepting the
Speaker:invitation.
Speaker:It's truly an honor to, you know, I have amazing guests.
Speaker:Always, I'm always, always so grateful that, you know, for anyone who wants to speak to me
Speaker:about their, their Tarot practice and their art.
Speaker:But that is a particularly the interview I was particularly waiting for because you are my
Speaker:favorite teacher and almost published author very soon published author and you know,
Speaker:you've got this amazing, amazing community already.
Speaker:So like speaking to such a tiny
Speaker:podcast like mine, it's a true honor.
Speaker:Well, again, as I was telling you before, like, these are my favorite conversations to
Speaker:have.
Speaker:Like I,
Speaker:you know, it's not a bad thing.
Speaker:But I do think with some other people that I
Speaker:might talk to, like they don't really know much about Tarot and we're not able to really
Speaker:get into the knit grit as we work here.
Speaker:So I honored by your words.
Speaker:I'm honored.
Speaker:Like, thank you for doing this for your community and I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:And yes, definitely people who are listening,
Speaker:it's a small group at the moment, small but mighty.
Speaker:And they are quite vocal in reaching out to me and asking questions and saying that they
Speaker:really like listening to my podcast and they are really into Tarot.
Speaker:So I think that's a great,
Speaker:great audience to speak to because I've encountered quite a few people, to my
Speaker:surprise,
Speaker:who didn't know you.
Speaker:And I was surprised because actually your podcast was probably the second thing I
Speaker:encountered when I started being interested in Tarot.
Speaker:So I just thought, well, that's an easy place to start or easy thing to find.
Speaker:So I was quite surprised.
Speaker:So yeah, could you tell to people who don't
Speaker:know you, could you tell more about your practice and your approach and who you are and
Speaker:what you do with Tarot?
Speaker:Yeah, of course.
Speaker:So my name is Lindsay Mack.
Speaker:I'm the founder of Tarot for the Wild Soul,
Speaker:which is a brand name and the name of my book and also the name of my podcast.
Speaker:All of those things are terrible for the wild soul.
Speaker:And I'm the creator of an approach to Tarot called Soul Tarot.
Speaker:Soul Tarot is many things, but the ABC radio version of it is that it is a trauma,
Speaker:sensitive, heart led,
Speaker:inclusive,
Speaker:largely non predictive framework to approach the cards in one rooted in common Sense and
Speaker:critical thinking.
Speaker:One that really they're pillars to Soul Tarot,
Speaker:but some of them are.
Speaker:We try and attempt to consider every card as bringing medicine,
Speaker:like right off the bat.
Speaker:It doesn't mean we have to like all of them,
Speaker:but I think it can really radically open the practice if we're starting with like, assuming
Speaker:best intentions about our cards.
Speaker:In Soul Terror, we're encouraged to show up to our cards messy,
Speaker:meaning that there's a real interrogation of like, why do we have to be all cleaned up and
Speaker:tuned in and feeling perfect to go to these cards when I actually think they can really
Speaker:develop intimacy when we show up with the real heavy duty stuff.
Speaker:And among many other things,
Speaker:while I absolutely acknowledge and want to really be clear that I think.
Speaker:Am I an intuitive? Yes. Do I hear things from people's guides
Speaker:about what might be in a cycle of time? A hundred percent.
Speaker:Do I pull and cast for the month ahead?
Speaker:Yes, I do.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:All of those things happen.
Speaker:And when I'm working with the cards by themselves from a baseline framework,
Speaker:I don't assume that any of them necessarily have a hard predictive bent to them just by
Speaker:virtue of their existence.
Speaker:So in other words, I like to really think
Speaker:about,
Speaker:you know, what is the levers if it's not attached to finding a beloved or what is two
Speaker:of Cups if it's not a kind of a union,
Speaker:you know, all of that.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So the cards can be predictive and our practice can be predictive, but it's not
Speaker:necessarily going to be for everyone.
Speaker:And it doesn't have to be automatically that
Speaker:way.
Speaker:And I also think from the perspective of a teacher, that's a really powerful homecoming
Speaker:because it can take away a lot of pressure.
Speaker:So that is,
Speaker:believe it or not, that's the, the.
Speaker:That's the elevator pitch.
Speaker:So much more say.
Speaker:But yeah, that's, that's the deal.
Speaker:And I, I do there.
Speaker:I, I've been honored to teach many, many
Speaker:people and it definitely resonates with some people and it does not resonate with some
Speaker:other people.
Speaker:And I think that's great because there's an approach for everyone.
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:I, I do agree and I think.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:It's not like if something is for everyone, then it's probably for no one.
Speaker:But,
Speaker:uh, but at the same time,
Speaker:I really, really what I. What drew me into your approach is this kind of seeing each card
Speaker:as.
Speaker:It's kind of in a very inclusive way.
Speaker:So seeing them in a way that they are not
Speaker:necessarily attached to the traditional like gender or like, even, you know, the lovers are
Speaker:a good example, not only gender wise, but also the fact that not everyone has a loved one or
Speaker:wants a relationship.
Speaker:And it's like saying that card is always about relationship or it's not necessarily for
Speaker:everyone.
Speaker:For example, or like cards that speak about
Speaker:motherhood, like the Empress very often is sometimes even portrayed as a, as a,
Speaker:as a mother or as a future mother.
Speaker:That's not for everyone necessarily.
Speaker:And it could be triggering for someone who,
Speaker:who would like to be a mother and can't, for example,
Speaker:so.
Speaker:Or just not relatable for someone who doesn't want to be.
Speaker:So it's, it's kind of the way of seeing, which I really, really like the way of seeing cards
Speaker:as something much bigger than the traditional approach.
Speaker:So like, I think what you're speaking to is it's really helpful to root into because I
Speaker:think like,
Speaker:at least for me,
Speaker:the traditional interpretations,
Speaker:even though, and I know this might be slightly blasphemous for some people.
Speaker:Like, I think a lot of them just do not hold water.
Speaker:Like, a lot of them, the minute you put them out in the, on the lake, they're gonna sink in
Speaker:practice.
Speaker:Like, I understand that if we look at the
Speaker:trajectory of the history of Tarot, we went from this like kind of closed door,
Speaker:secret society energy around the cards and then there was this real desire to have it be
Speaker:like, you can read tarot.
Speaker:You can read tarot for anyone.
Speaker:Like, 1, 2, 3, boom, boom, boom.
Speaker:Easy peasy.
Speaker:So great.
Speaker:And also there's a profound shorthand around the cards that had to be developed because
Speaker:it's a really complex practice.
Speaker:Like, there's just like no rushing one's.
Speaker:Like, I'm not saying somebody has to devotedly study for years and years before they read.
Speaker:Like, you can read whenever you want to, but that's the trade off and the,
Speaker:the price that's paid when there is the, this sense of like,
Speaker:well, the.
Speaker:In the traditional, like, cups are about love.
Speaker:And it's like, but the swords can be about love too.
Speaker:What does that mean? What do you mean by love?
Speaker:Like,
Speaker:what kind of love?
Speaker:And, and you're exactly right.
Speaker:It's a, it's why one of the root systems of
Speaker:soul Tarot is to be inclusive, not as like some buzzword, but like,
Speaker:well, how do we read for somebody who's recently widowed?
Speaker:What if they get all cups? Like, how are we going to read for somebody
Speaker:who's ace aromantic, like asexual?
Speaker:Like we, we read for these people like how are they?
Speaker:How are they?
Speaker:So I, I think like my big rigorous,
Speaker:passionate desire is I feel that everybody gets to keep anything they want about any
Speaker:tarot card.
Speaker:Like I always say this.
Speaker:If you are, you identify as a woman, if you're very, very connected with the divine feminine
Speaker:and even if you're not and if the, the Empress means so much to you as mother,
Speaker:as feminine, as goddess, like I, I don't think that has to go anywhere.
Speaker:And I also feel respectfully that we do have an obligation to widen the capacity and look
Speaker:beyond that because just as you said, it doesn't resonate with everybody.
Speaker:So what is the Empress outside of that? What is any person outside of the role of
Speaker:mother or gender binary? Like who are we?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So I think it's, it's just a larger question
Speaker:that I'm, I'm very interested in exploring.
Speaker:Yeah. And especially I was thinking when you were saying we were talking about it, I just
Speaker:thought about court cards that very often also because just even the name code cards is
Speaker:really like kind of old fashioned and speaking to a certain structure which very often people
Speaker:don't relate to in many places.
Speaker:Rightfully so probably.
Speaker:And,
Speaker:and it's sometimes even like associating code cards with those particular persons sometimes
Speaker:even alienates people who want like to the extent that there is a deck now being
Speaker:developed by Devani Amberwolf which is super interesting because it actually has like how
Speaker:many will be cards?
Speaker:Minus 16, 62 or something,
Speaker:but basically without.
Speaker:And I was interested.
Speaker:What, why, why she says it's actually, I think
Speaker:it's 64 cards but there are two additional or something like that.
Speaker:But what did she get rid of? How can you have tarot cards without some
Speaker:cards? And it turned out when I read more about this
Speaker:project that it's without code cards because she was thinking about it and decided that
Speaker:she, she did, you know, previous decks with the code cards but that she feels like this
Speaker:deck is,
Speaker:this is not necessary because they are speaking to some things she
Speaker:maybe doesn't relate to now at the moment.
Speaker:And I thought this is an interesting approach, I get it.
Speaker:And at the same time I think maybe it's a bit of a shame because I do,
Speaker:I love pages.
Speaker:I love Page of Pentacles.
Speaker:I'm not sure I want a deck without Page of Pentacles.
Speaker:So. So yeah, it's just how we,
Speaker:yeah how we, how we kind of see those cards outside of this royal regal associations and,
Speaker:and also outside of maybe necessary seeing them as people as, as other People or as
Speaker:gendered people or as people of certain age,
Speaker:which often they are depicted in that way also.
Speaker:Now there, there are many decks which are trying to find some other names for them or
Speaker:like Marine Disguise deck.
Speaker:The General Tarot has those Harvest and Seed
Speaker:and Flower, I think.
Speaker:So just to name it in a different way and speak to something a bit different.
Speaker:But yeah, I was just thinking that this is also like thinking outside of these
Speaker:traditional interpretations also allows us to
Speaker:like all those cards a bit more.
Speaker:I think I couldn't agree with you more.
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:I think it's really cool.
Speaker:I, I hear what you're saying and I'm of two
Speaker:minds about it.
Speaker:Like, I think it's.
Speaker:I love Devani and I feel like it's so cool that part of their kind of reclamation journey
Speaker:includes being like, I don't have to work with these.
Speaker:Maybe that's.
Speaker:That I haven't read much about.
Speaker:Like, I think that's such a big part.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Of our tarot rewilding journey.
Speaker:And I,
Speaker:I love the court cards so much.
Speaker:So yeah, it is, it's going to be so
Speaker:interesting to see how it all shapes up.
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:yeah.
Speaker:And I'm just.
Speaker:It comes.
Speaker:This deck comes with a big, like, it's not even a booklet.
Speaker:It's the whole big magazine which like explains everything and all the
Speaker:interpretations.
Speaker:So I'm very, very curious.
Speaker:I supported this project on Kickstarter, so I'm awaiting arrival at some point in future.
Speaker:So, so I'm very curious because I, I kind of feel like,
Speaker:oh, it's gonna be missing something.
Speaker:Yeah. So.
Speaker:So yes, I, I do love your, your teaching for those reasons we were speaking about because.
Speaker:Allows me to be more free, I think, with, with seeing the cards.
Speaker:And also I never.
Speaker:Because I kind of started.
Speaker:I think you were the second person when I started exploring, exploring Tarot, you were
Speaker:the second teacher I came across.
Speaker:It was a Polish, Polish woman, also quite intuitive and sort of rule breaking.
Speaker:So I never had this.
Speaker:Maybe I'm lucky or maybe I have good intuition in finding good people because I never had
Speaker:this experience which I hear from people.
Speaker:They sometimes do have a lot of gatekeeping.
Speaker:A lot of like they feel excluded.
Speaker:I kind of never saw that.
Speaker:But I think I'm just looking in right places.
Speaker:On my tarot journey, I encountered quite a few people who were talking about cards like tarot
Speaker:in general as a bit scary practice.
Speaker:They are really interested in it.
Speaker:They,
Speaker:they want to develop.
Speaker:They try to read for themselves,
Speaker:maybe not at this stage for others.
Speaker:Yet, but kind of learn about it.
Speaker:But they are scared of tarot.
Speaker:They are scared of certain cards and I think scared of the fact that they feel like tarot
Speaker:is gonna.
Speaker:Maybe it's a divination attitude that, yeah,
Speaker:you pull cards that's gonna happen to you.
Speaker:And if it's tower, the tower or Devil or something that feels Wheel of Fortune even a
Speaker:bit unsteady,
Speaker:that causes a lot of stress.
Speaker:So they are trying to approach.
Speaker:They are looking for cards that are maybe less scary in their imagery, which is really great.
Speaker:And at the same time, I think that any deck can not be scary, even if it has quite,
Speaker:you know, more Halloween scary imagery.
Speaker:And that basically the artist has this kind of
Speaker:type of style, which maybe is a bit more scary.
Speaker:It doesn't mean that the cards have to be scary.
Speaker:And I think,
Speaker:yeah, I feel quite,
Speaker:quite lucky that I never looked from this.
Speaker:I. From this side, from this perspective in the.
Speaker:In the beginning.
Speaker:And I was quite surprised meeting quite a few people who.
Speaker:Who were speaking about tarot in that way.
Speaker:Just a lot of fear and a lot of reverence.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:As if it was.
Speaker:I mean, I don't want to offend anyone's
Speaker:feelings about that, but I just don't think that any object can be.
Speaker:Can have.
Speaker:Can hold such a power.
Speaker:And whether.
Speaker:Whether it's their cards or.
Speaker:You know, I grew up Catholic and I am Polish,
Speaker:so lots of people are Catholic in Poland.
Speaker:And there is a lot of those.
Speaker:You know, the church is very powerful, less so now, but was in when
Speaker:I was a child.
Speaker:And there is a lot of this, like, reverence towards the Bible as a. Not as a message, but
Speaker:as a book.
Speaker:How you are supposed to treat a book.
Speaker:I remember when the priest was talking about the Bible should have a special place on the
Speaker:bookshelf.
Speaker:And my parents just had it stuck between other
Speaker:books, basically.
Speaker:And I, as a kid, I felt like that's maybe they
Speaker:are doing something wrong.
Speaker:You know, all this attitude towards rosaries, towards things,
Speaker:objects,
Speaker:the holy water is, you know, things that are supposed to be treated in some way just
Speaker:because they.
Speaker:They carry some divine message or something.
Speaker:And it can be.
Speaker:And some people seem to have similar attitude
Speaker:to tarot that you have to.
Speaker:You kind of have to do certain rituals around it before they.
Speaker:The cards work.
Speaker:And I sometimes feel like.
Speaker:I don't think so.
Speaker:I think,
Speaker:you know, I read a book by.
Speaker:I think it's called like Charlie Charlie Burgers.
Speaker:Now I'm just probably butchering.
Speaker:Butchering their name about.
Speaker:Oh, Charlie Claire Charlie. Claire Burgess.
Speaker:Amazing.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And it's, it's such a great book with this kind of.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Tarot is made up.
Speaker:It's, you know, it is what you want it to be.
Speaker:It's all made up.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And it's just, it's just so refreshing.
Speaker:I think more people should read books like
Speaker:that.
Speaker:I agree.
Speaker:I agree.
Speaker:Yeah. I'm, I'm really happy to not be so precious about it.
Speaker:Not that you're being precious about it, but I'm, I'm.
Speaker:I'm happy to come in and be very irreverent because you're absolutely right.
Speaker:It, it's so first and foremost, like,
Speaker:if you can purchase it from like a warehouse from Amazon, from like, it's, it's just not
Speaker:the holy object that we think it is.
Speaker:And I think like,
Speaker:sometimes just thinking about the globalization, like the, the manufacturing
Speaker:industry,
Speaker:like there are many people working in factories right now creating your tarot decks
Speaker:who are not feeling any type of way about them.
Speaker:I'm sure they're doing an incredible job,
Speaker:but like,
Speaker:not necessarily experiencing holy visions and you know, like, it's, it's,
Speaker:it's the.
Speaker:All of this is.
Speaker:I also was raised Catholic, Roman Catholic.
Speaker:And all of this is just a holdover from religion,
Speaker:organized religion, like giving power to objects.
Speaker:Giving. And I think specifically, I don't want to speak on behalf of any religion
Speaker:specifically.
Speaker:I do think it's a very Catholic thing.
Speaker:There's some Christians that I speak to do not feel quite the same way as I experienced as a
Speaker:Catholic growing up.
Speaker:But like,
Speaker:as I never have been Catholic, but raised Catholic.
Speaker:But there, there's just this like enormous giving over.
Speaker:Like we, we see it in the Tarot.
Speaker:Like almost all of the descriptions of the
Speaker:cards.
Speaker:Pardon me,
Speaker:Almost all of the descriptions of the cards go back to someone else.
Speaker:Something else.
Speaker:An event out here.
Speaker:A teacher over there, a lover over there, money out here.
Speaker:It's all you.
Speaker:And these.
Speaker:If it wasn't these cards, it would be
Speaker:something else.
Speaker:Because I think everything in life aspires to be a mirror,
Speaker:which is probably a very narcissistic thought in terms of a collective attitude.
Speaker:But I do believe in the gentle power of mirroring.
Speaker:Like, I think we can witness trees, I think they witness us.
Speaker:I think there's a mirroring, like a very beautiful exchange that happens there.
Speaker:And I think,
Speaker:yeah, the tarot as a system,
Speaker:if you really, really look into the root system of tarot,
Speaker:it's based in a tremendous amount of exoticism.
Speaker:Like, if you really Go back into the history of the tarot.
Speaker:It started as a parlor game which was drawn from Mamla cards, which came from Egypt, what
Speaker:is now Egypt.
Speaker:And also, like my friend Sanu Estelle, who is incredible,
Speaker:is writing a book that I'm sure you've heard about.
Speaker:She was on my podcast about it.
Speaker:That's like, well,
Speaker:Italy being the first place to make tarot.
Speaker:Like, Sonyu was talking about how they played
Speaker:a very significant role in the paper industry.
Speaker:So it probably couldn't have been anybody else.
Speaker:So it's like there's all these technical pieces,
Speaker:right, that really strip away the reverence that I think tarot is given.
Speaker:That is a holdover from a lot of things in our culture that if people want to keep them, I
Speaker:think that's fine, but they certainly don't have to.
Speaker:And I think that it's a pretty old world idea that this tarot deck is somehow this sacred
Speaker:item.
Speaker:And I think again, if that works for someone,
Speaker:I think that's great.
Speaker:But you're the sacred item.
Speaker:It's just paper.
Speaker:Like it's cards.
Speaker:It's a mirror for you to the extent that.
Speaker:And some people cannot fathom when I say
Speaker:things like this, they're like, what do you mean?
Speaker:And I understand that because some people are very visual.
Speaker:I've never let the visuals on cards stop me from getting to my own understanding of them.
Speaker:So I feel.
Speaker:And I just made a deck myself with Chelsea
Speaker:Granger that's going to be out in like a little under two weeks at the recording of
Speaker:this.
Speaker:But like Mike,
Speaker:my artwork that Chelsea executed is.
Speaker:Or like the images that I wanted Chelsea to create, which she did,
Speaker:they're a suggestion.
Speaker:They're a suggestion like you can do whatever you want.
Speaker:You can decline that suggestion.
Speaker:You can take it.
Speaker:It's not gospel.
Speaker:There is no gospel.
Speaker:A bunch of people over time made it up.
Speaker:Just like Charlie Claire said, that's been a
Speaker:huge part of my work for many years.
Speaker:Like,
Speaker:this is something to be a lot more, a lot less precious about and a lot less reverent about
Speaker:and in turn a lot less fear based about.
Speaker:Because I think the undercurrent of that is,
Speaker:I'm afraid to bother it,
Speaker:upset it, like it's some sort of God or creature of fortune that if we don't treat it
Speaker:well, will somehow not give us good tidings, which is a pretty old school idea too.
Speaker:And like none of that is necessary or required for a continued relationship with the tarot.
Speaker:And I'm also not taking Anything away from anybody,
Speaker:I would just say, like,
Speaker:it's a really cool and worthy thing to play with.
Speaker:To play with.
Speaker:Like,
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:What if I just didn't make it so huge that it needed to be this way?
Speaker:What if I let there be a little bit of room in here?
Speaker:I've just never really seen the benefit in that.
Speaker:And I don't think it works.
Speaker:You know, not only is it not particularly beneficial, I just don't think it,
Speaker:you know,
Speaker:actually works all that well.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker:It doesn't necessarily add anything more to the meaning of cards.
Speaker:I just.
Speaker:I feel sometimes like it's a. It's a way of gatekeeping as well.
Speaker:Like, you need to.
Speaker:You need those special.
Speaker:Maybe not special powers, but special.
Speaker:Special attitude and this kind of reverence
Speaker:and the special.
Speaker:Maybe ritual, maybe you being in a special mood or being in some way clean to do it or
Speaker:it's just.
Speaker:Yeah, it just prevents, I think, sometimes
Speaker:people from just reaching for cards and pulling one and looking.
Speaker:What.
Speaker:What I. What should I relate to to now? Or what should I concentrate on it now when
Speaker:I'm,
Speaker:like, when my desk is messy and I don't have an altar because I live in a third room with
Speaker:flatmate or something.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:For example.
Speaker:Or there are kids who are, you know, pulling
Speaker:everything around from my table so I can't have little objects on my altar or something
Speaker:like that.
Speaker:So I. I also feel passionate about this.
Speaker:Not to cut you off from a. From an
Speaker:accessibility perspective.
Speaker:So I. I am somebody with invisible disabilities, chronic pain, chronic illness,
Speaker:and live on spiral time, which is not a new phrase, certainly not a phrase I invented and
Speaker:means many things to many people.
Speaker:But for me,
Speaker:it really describes very well the cadence of life lived when you really are not sure what
Speaker:your body is going to do in any given moment.
Speaker:And even when your body exists in the world
Speaker:the way one might expect to, there's also a trauma that comes with living with chronic
Speaker:pain and chronic illness,
Speaker:where the concern about, like, what if.
Speaker:Like, as I prepare to go on my book tour,
Speaker:like,
Speaker:that's been a huge source of terror and fear.
Speaker:Like, what will I do if, like, I'm away and I
Speaker:need help? What will I do if I get sick, sick before I
Speaker:have to go?
Speaker:Like,
Speaker:it's a huge source of stress and always is, no matter what.
Speaker:If I'm traveling to teach, always.
Speaker:I feel very strongly, again,
Speaker:from a space of disability justice, that if we cannot or if we are encouraged not to go to
Speaker:our tarot Deck for anything,
Speaker:in any circumstances, in any situation,
Speaker:we have lost the plot a little bit.
Speaker:If your tarot deck can't come with you into
Speaker:your darkened room for the migraine that you were never expecting, into your hospital room
Speaker:if it cannot come with you, like hidden in your purse on your way to court, on your way
Speaker:to this,
Speaker:on your way to that, like, it,
Speaker:it's not how everyone works with tarot.
Speaker:Like, some people are very blessed and lucky, and maybe they're not even blessed and lucky,
Speaker:but they still feel like my terrible lungs on this, like,
Speaker:altar, like, as a revered item.
Speaker:I, I, I would never be here alive with you today talking about any of this if my tarot
Speaker:deck hadn't, if I hadn't rigorously expected it to come with me in any situation.
Speaker:And any deck that couldn't do that, I couldn't hang with it.
Speaker:And there is an expectation that my deck will follow anyone,
Speaker:anyone that I have the privilege of serving into any situation and will follow me into any
Speaker:situation.
Speaker:And so I think I would never, ever presume to place the term ableism on anybody who had this
Speaker:very high degree of reverence, because I think that's a bit shortsighted.
Speaker:But I also want to acknowledge in myself, like I have, I live in this over culture like
Speaker:everybody, like I have internalized ableism.
Speaker:Like I'm still undoing.
Speaker:So I, I assume everybody does.
Speaker:And I stand alongside everybody and unlearning this ****.
Speaker:So I think too that I would never, ever have been able to come to some of the
Speaker:interpretations or treatments or perspectives on soul tarot if I hadn't let my deck follow
Speaker:me into the cave.
Speaker:Because without that it was, it remained a surface relationship.
Speaker:And people, I think, do different work with the tarot than I do, and they go very deep in
Speaker:their own way.
Speaker:But that's also the potential of what we lose
Speaker:if we don't let ourselves go to the tarot, really broken, really dirty, really messy, and
Speaker:actually let it help us untie the initial knot.
Speaker:It's a comment on,
Speaker:I think our death phobic culture on our, on our culture that is very,
Speaker:I think generally very afraid of deep intimacy and vulnerability.
Speaker:Like, we, we carry that into our relationship with the tarot, which does.
Speaker:It sounds a little bananas, but I, I think it's true.
Speaker:And I also think that this tool is so amazing because it's.
Speaker:Not everyone's gonna work with it really differently.
Speaker:Not everybody's gonna be called to explore it.
Speaker:The way I'm talking about it, I think that's
Speaker:Great.
Speaker:And I also think, just as I'm leaving space for others,
Speaker:I think it's really important to leave a space in the conversation for this too.
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:yeah,
Speaker:yeah.
Speaker:Well, I have nothing to add,
Speaker:agree 100% but you mentioned, you mentioned your deck, so that is a perfect segue to ask
Speaker:about your deck which you made with Chelsea and I.
Speaker:I ordered
Speaker:both your deck and your book for
Speaker:my shop, but it hasn't arrived yet, obviously.
Speaker:And also the launch date in the UK is later
Speaker:because it's one of them, it's on 21st, 21st of May, so a couple of days later.
Speaker:But the other, I think the deck and then the book is 4th of June.
Speaker:Wow, interesting.
Speaker:I didn't know that.
Speaker:That's so weird.
Speaker:It's so weird.
Speaker:Especially like in this world where, you know,
Speaker:everything is in action.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Like, oh, they're from abroad.
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:And why separate? Why this is not the same date.
Speaker:I don't know reasons of the publishing.
Speaker:Oh, thank you for telling me that.
Speaker:I didn't know.
Speaker:I didn't know about that.
Speaker:Yeah. That's just bizarre.
Speaker:They basically said this is.
Speaker:These are the dates and I will get them just by this date.
Speaker:And I also have an audiobook ages ago,
Speaker:pre, pre ordered audiobook, which I presume, I guess on 19th because it's from.
Speaker:From Libro FM which is an American company.
Speaker:So I guess,
Speaker:I guess that's what will happen.
Speaker:So I could not.
Speaker:I didn't see the cards apart from the pictures which are on the publisher's website until
Speaker:last night when you were showing during.
Speaker:During the workshop.
Speaker:Which by the way, just to explain, Lindsay has this wonderful membership called Soul Tarot
Speaker:membership,
Speaker:which is a beautiful space with.
Speaker:With live meetings and massive library of
Speaker:materials and also very, very friendly forum.
Speaker:So I do recommend that.
Speaker:And yesterday, which was midnight for me,
Speaker:basically all those workshops are at midnight.
Speaker:But it's fine.
Speaker:I'm kind of like.
Speaker:That's why I'm mostly without my camera.
Speaker:So I'm kind of half sleeping and then like
Speaker:waking up and like participating and then like so.
Speaker:But I was actually constantly like picking up my phone and looking because on the slide
Speaker:presentation you illustrated everything with your cards.
Speaker:So I could not all of them, but quite a few of them were represented so I could see them.
Speaker:And I just absolutely love it because it's mostly nature.
Speaker:I don't think there are any people in it.
Speaker:There are no people.
Speaker:Animals and trees and different pieces of nature and stones and various things like
Speaker:that, which I really really like.
Speaker:And,
Speaker:and I like the fact it's very like the imagery is very clean and simple in a way not.
Speaker:But not simple in a bad way simple in a good way.
Speaker:That there is not.
Speaker:It's just very clear.
Speaker:This is like Knight of swords is a, is one of the birds of prey.
Speaker:Going down peregrine.
Speaker:So it's, it's fast.
Speaker:It's. It's definitely.
Speaker:You can see, see fast movement and that's it.
Speaker:So, so it's, it's,
Speaker:it's lovely. But I was, I'm wondering what was the process of kind of coming up with this
Speaker:kind of imagery and not including people.
Speaker:Yeah, so that's always that, that's,
Speaker:that's been forever that there, that, that.
Speaker:I always knew long before anybody would have
Speaker:paid me or given me any kind of deal to do a deck.
Speaker:I, I always knew there in it not because I don't love human beings but because I think
Speaker:being somebody who has a real passion for spiritual ecology and has been saved and
Speaker:helped and healed by nature,
Speaker:I. I go to nature and look for meaning and medicine and allegory and have learned so much
Speaker:about tarot from nature and have learned so much more about,
Speaker:you know, nature from tarot and there it felt like a no brainer to me.
Speaker:I think it's all there and I wanted to.
Speaker:I think my like the, the a really big piece of my vibe is like simple and practical and I
Speaker:think that there was a desire to kind of feel like this deck could be like a river rock.
Speaker:No particular like I think it's a gorgeous deck thanks to Chelsea.
Speaker:But like I just wanted it to feel like any treasure you could find on a walk.
Speaker:I didn't want it to feel too out there for anyone.
Speaker:It just again, not because I have so many decks that are like glorious and so far out
Speaker:there.
Speaker:It's just me, you know.
Speaker:But that's how that came about in terms of the
Speaker:decision.
Speaker:It just.
Speaker:So I wasn't even really a decision.
Speaker:Just knew that it would be that way.
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:it's.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I think, I think, I think many people will resonate with it.
Speaker:I think many, many people.
Speaker:I mean some folks like when there
Speaker:are people represented and sometimes it's really
Speaker:good if particular people prefer any particular
Speaker:type of people represented.
Speaker:So whether it's race or maybe queer people or something, anything disabilities represented,
Speaker:which is also great.
Speaker:And at the same time lots of people prefer like I prefer.
Speaker:I think without.
Speaker:I kind of resonate it resonate better with me
Speaker:if they are animals,
Speaker:you're not the only one.
Speaker:Yeah. So I, I think it's gonna be very popular.
Speaker:And the book,
Speaker:the book which.
Speaker:Well, I can't imagine what's in it just because I've been following your teachings and
Speaker:done your courses.
Speaker:So I guess it's kind of that vibe.
Speaker:But I haven't read a, a single.
Speaker:Oh no, I have like a couple of paragraphs in,
Speaker:I think on your sub stack.
Speaker:But overall that's, that will be new to me
Speaker:because there was no option to see it earlier.
Speaker:So can you tell more about like, why?
Speaker:I mean, not,
Speaker:not why.
Speaker:Obviously it's, it's, you have your, your
Speaker:teaching, your method, so it's quite natural that you would like to share it with the
Speaker:world.
Speaker:But how, how does it come about that, oh, I'll write a book rather than keep doing courses or
Speaker:writing a blog or.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Well,
Speaker:this all started to come about.
Speaker:I feel like it was either December of 2020,
Speaker:I think it was December of 2023.
Speaker:I was ready to leave this career.
Speaker:Well,
Speaker:yeah, I, I had had a baby and had really extreme situations arise in my postpartum.
Speaker:And then the economy tanked and it like, we needed so much help after I had my baby that
Speaker:we had very little in savings and it was truly like Hail Mary for a long, long time.
Speaker:And it was like right after having had my baby.
Speaker:So I just wasn't at the capacity that I usually am.
Speaker:I didn't have the time, the space,
Speaker:the landscape in the months that I had been recovering, like, had seemingly like
Speaker:completely changed and I hadn't been keeping up with it.
Speaker:So when I came back, I was like, oh, like nobody is investing in this.
Speaker:Whoa. I have to like, turn it around and turn it around and turn it around.
Speaker:It was really stressful and really hard.
Speaker:And at the same time,
Speaker:I've always been interested in becoming a death doula and working in end of life care.
Speaker:And so I just was like,
Speaker:like the call to be a therapist had always been very interesting to me.
Speaker:We were still doing fine,
Speaker:but again, like, just to speak really transparently, if you're used to like,
Speaker:it, it was just a drastic difference in what had been.
Speaker:And so we had to like retroactively shift so much to align with like,
Speaker:what actually wound up being great.
Speaker:It's a much slower pace, it's a lot less
Speaker:breakneck than it used to be pre baby, but it was a, a real tower, it was a real trial by
Speaker:fire.
Speaker:And I, I, I was still struggling with depression and was very burned out and I Think
Speaker:I was just like,
Speaker:nobody cares about this anymore.
Speaker:And I think I could do great work in another
Speaker:career.
Speaker:So I was, like, looking at grad schools to try to see what I could do.
Speaker:And an editor reached out to me and was like,
Speaker:I would love for you to create a book.
Speaker:Have you ever considered it?
Speaker:And I was like, yeah, I have, but I'm not going to do anything without an agent, and I
Speaker:don't have an agent.
Speaker:And she very generously was like, I'll introduce you to some agents and.
Speaker:Which had not happened before.
Speaker:And there was one agent who is wonderful.
Speaker:And we connected.
Speaker:And I kind of tentatively and a little tenderly was like,
Speaker:sure.
Speaker:Like, of course we.
Speaker:Like, if you want to work with me, I'd be
Speaker:honored to work with you.
Speaker:And then it took me almost a year to get a proposal together with my agent.
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:That we could shop it.
Speaker:And again, like, kind of this whole time I was like,
Speaker:I don't know, like, I think I missed the boat on this.
Speaker:Like, no one cares.
Speaker:Like, who cares about what I have to say or
Speaker:do? Like, it's done, it's tired, whatever.
Speaker:But we shopped it, and there wound up being a publisher who I went with running House, who
Speaker:was wonderful and, like, really the right fit.
Speaker:And the proposal was incredibly generous.
Speaker:And I do believe that it came into my life at a time where I felt complete.
Speaker:I really was like, I think I'm ready for something.
Speaker:Not to imply in any way, shape or form that death care work or therapy work is stable,
Speaker:but I think I, I was like,
Speaker:I wanted something maybe more legitimate.
Speaker:Like, maybe more like I could take it into different spaces somehow.
Speaker:Like, there was a desire to have something perceivably more solid.
Speaker:I think, in, in my head and all of these different things.
Speaker:Just,
Speaker:my career has never gone that way before.
Speaker:Like, I've, I have built the table that I sit
Speaker:at.
Speaker:I'm not saying that there, I'm not saying that there haven't been people who have uplifted
Speaker:me,
Speaker:helped me along the way.
Speaker:But, like,
Speaker:I, I've made this table, I've made the chairs, I've provided.
Speaker:Like, I, I'm,
Speaker:I, I, I did not have a seat at the table made for me in, in this industry.
Speaker:So this,
Speaker:it was one of those things I really couldn't ignore.
Speaker:Like, here I was, ready to walk away.
Speaker:And all of the, it, it, they kept falling into my hands over and over.
Speaker:And I think initially I thought,
Speaker:as it really was not actually about the money.
Speaker:I didn't expect to make really any money with
Speaker:this book.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:It felt like a calling,
Speaker:and it felt like something where there were too many very obvious yeses to ignore it.
Speaker:And when I tuned in about it again and again and again, I kept getting a yes.
Speaker:And so I said yes.
Speaker:And the book and deck wound up getting sold.
Speaker:And then that came with a lot of other gorgeous highs and lows.
Speaker:And yeah,
Speaker:I think it, it forced me to rethink that perspective about,
Speaker:like,
Speaker:whatever, no one, no one even cares,
Speaker:because I've really come to find out that that's not true.
Speaker:And even if it was true, I think it's also reignited a passion for accessibility.
Speaker:Like, there, there's always been this sense of, like, I have a lot of work out there, but
Speaker:it's, It's.
Speaker:There's a little bit here and a little bit
Speaker:there, and it's not quite in one zone.
Speaker:And so that,
Speaker:like, there's a million reasons why I think writing this book has been like the blessing
Speaker:and honor of a lifetime.
Speaker:But the biggest one, I think was just the
Speaker:opportunity to get everything down in one place as a testament to the approach and the
Speaker:framework to talk about how I see tarot today,
Speaker:you know, because the way that I work with it is now pretty different than, you know, I
Speaker:don't go to my deck quite as much.
Speaker:Like, there's, there's definitely, like,
Speaker:I still work with it, but it is a little different than when I started,
Speaker:just like anything else.
Speaker:So,
Speaker:yeah, I, I think I had always dreamed of writing a book.
Speaker:It had been one of the biggest dreams of my life.
Speaker:I think I just assumed that it wasn't going to happen for me or that I'd self publish, and I
Speaker:just didn't really have the heart to do that.
Speaker:After a certain point I was just like, I don't.
Speaker:I just don't,
Speaker:you know, the, the longing isn't there.
Speaker:So I do feel like it was a little bit of the universe, like blowing on the embers to get
Speaker:some fire going again.
Speaker:But yeah, it came at a incredibly unexpected time.
Speaker:Like, I, I get.
Speaker:I always thought pre 2022, like when courses
Speaker:were, I think, generally doing so much better for everyone than they are now.
Speaker:I don't.
Speaker:That wasn't independent to me, that sense of like people in the magical creative arts
Speaker:having to pivot from like a course model.
Speaker:Like, it just happened very suddenly for me, I
Speaker:think, which has its own privileges in that.
Speaker:Yeah, I just, I. I don't know.
Speaker:I just didn't.
Speaker:It was getting the best of me.
Speaker:I Think I was letting economic drivers define
Speaker:other stuff and the book was a helpful reminder that that's not totally true.
Speaker:Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker:It felt like a real love letter to everyone
Speaker:who's ever trusted me with their tarot education.
Speaker:Anybody who's been curious about this approach,
Speaker:anybody who just wanted something in their hands, didn't want to or weren't able to pay
Speaker:for a course, didn't have the attention span or the wherewithal or the capacity to go
Speaker:through like volumes and years of podcast episodes.
Speaker:It just felt like a very good, natural next fit to do it.
Speaker:And I was so lucky to be given the opportunity.
Speaker:So that's how it all came about.
Speaker:That is an amazing story.
Speaker:I didn't know that.
Speaker:I mean like you, I. First of all, I didn't know that you were ready to walk away.
Speaker:I totally get it that the landscape changed in terms of courses.
Speaker:And it's not only the spiritual Tarot magic area is the same in language learning is the
Speaker:same in.
Speaker:In business.
Speaker:Like any kind of business to business space
Speaker:for.
Speaker:For small online businesses.
Speaker:It used to be such a courses, self paced courses was such a big thing for a few years
Speaker:and then they weren't anymore.
Speaker:And I think it's partially because we just
Speaker:like really want connection with each other.
Speaker:Of course, much more somehow suddenly and with the AI and with this tiredness of pandemic and
Speaker:lots of things in general,
Speaker:general mess of the world.
Speaker:I think people just want to connect, if not face to face, but at least in just feeling
Speaker:that this other people, the communities together and the teacher is actually teaching
Speaker:in the space with the students.
Speaker:I need it.
Speaker:It became.
Speaker:It became a bigger thing in that respect.
Speaker:So I think, for example, that your membership
Speaker:is a wonderful iteration now of that and it would have been a shame if you walked away.
Speaker:So I'm very grateful to the agent that they just popped up with the idea and pulled you
Speaker:back.
Speaker:I'm so grateful too.
Speaker:I. I would have really regretted it.
Speaker:I think I would have.
Speaker:It would have been really sad.
Speaker:I still had things to say.
Speaker:I was just so tired.
Speaker:I was just like, I just don't know how much
Speaker:more I can do.
Speaker:So heartbreaking.
Speaker:But we pulled it around,
Speaker:you know, And I'm so grateful because like I feel so much more connected to my students.
Speaker:Like I'm teaching live so much more than I was like.
Speaker:I love that, you know, and sometimes it's tricky, but it's so rare that it is.
Speaker:It's just a joy, you know,
Speaker:so.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:But yeah, and also the book.
Speaker:It's, it's.
Speaker:You were saying about it, maybe the courses
Speaker:are not necessarily accessible or financially or like yeah,
Speaker:energy and, and time.
Speaker:But also I think books overall are more accessible to people in general because there
Speaker:are far more places you can bump into a book which is published, especially published by a
Speaker:mainstream publisher.
Speaker:So it's, there is a chance it's going to be on Amazon, it's going to be in bookstores in
Speaker:different countries and it's a natural thing.
Speaker:Like if someone wants to learn about tarot,
Speaker:they are.
Speaker:I think I may be wrong, but I think it's more
Speaker:likely people will go to some kind of a bookstore and they look for this particular
Speaker:shelf and then they will read whatever is there rather than trying to shift through
Speaker:bajillion of things online.
Speaker:Uh, because there are so many courses and some are good, some are bad,
Speaker:some are not worth the money, some are extremely good value for money.
Speaker:But you don't know.
Speaker:And you're right listening to several years of backlog of podcasts is, is, is quite.
Speaker:And also you know, know where you land.
Speaker:Like I, when I found your podcast that was you
Speaker:know, few years in the making.
Speaker:So it was some episode number something at
Speaker:2020 I think or 2021.
Speaker:And yeah, and I started listening and I remember this.
Speaker:I, I don't really understand what it is about.
Speaker:I obviously understand everything what you're
Speaker:saying but because I had no prior knowledge it felt that is advanced and I hell is this.
Speaker:Yeah, of course like relating on this
Speaker:cat and that relates.
Speaker:And suddenly I was like what is this?
Speaker:But there was something, I think I remember telling it to my friend Dax explaining well
Speaker:yeah, but this, this podcast has such a,
Speaker:like a calming voice is just pleasant to listen and at some point it start getting more
Speaker:and more and my friend was like so you just, you listen to someone, you really don't
Speaker:understand what they are on about but you listen because they have nice voice.
Speaker:So. Well, basically yeah, I do hear that from people.
Speaker:I do, I do.
Speaker:And it's very sweet.
Speaker:And it starts clicking at some point you go through enough that it starts making sense.
Speaker:And then I thought okay, well I, I, I, I'm gonna get a course and I, I bought your, your.
Speaker:The, I can't remember which one was the rewilding the child like the, the basic, the
Speaker:more, the earlier,
Speaker:earlier one sort of more basic one.
Speaker:And then it started makes making sense because
Speaker:it's more organized.
Speaker:But at the same time I think I probably if the book was Available I would probably look for a
Speaker:book quote that's gonna be organized knowledge.
Speaker:Yeah. Rather than trying to find out guess from the you know, several episodes and kind
Speaker:of link things together.
Speaker:So I think it's, I think it's a really, really really good thing and at the same time I, I,
Speaker:I agree that self publishing it's a beautiful thing and I lots of wonderful things gets self
Speaker:published but then apart from publishing, writing,
Speaker:writing the whole thing, you have to do the whole promotion otherwise no one's going to
Speaker:know about it.
Speaker:And that is exhausting.
Speaker:I am finding that that's true even with a big publisher.
Speaker:Well I guess they won't only publish to publish people I heard from, I heard it from
Speaker:other yeah yeah yeah yeah big audiences.
Speaker:Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker:Like I, I,
Speaker:I remember. Yeah. I mean I'm so lucky to be where I will never.
Speaker:I'm not gonna you know say anything but you, you really I think that the,
Speaker:I think that people who are getting incredible promotion are incredibly well connected and I
Speaker:think that that's about all there is to that.
Speaker:You know they're busy over there.
Speaker:They're busy but at least there is a good distribution.
Speaker:Yes. I'm not going to complain.
Speaker:Of course this is the thing you know that that is going to be distributed in bookstores and
Speaker:bookstores don't really
Speaker:want to deal with like little people
Speaker:because it's too much hassle like which is so unfortunate.
Speaker:But yeah it is but I also,
Speaker:I also get it where it comes from.
Speaker:All the taxes, all the reliability of stock
Speaker:and, and things like that.
Speaker:I have a tiny shop and I mostly actually your,
Speaker:your, your book and your deck is going to be the first one maybe for time being the only
Speaker:one which comes from a big publisher.
Speaker:Everything is self published by small creators artists and it has its own you
Speaker:know,
Speaker:bad side for me.
Speaker:Like I have to pay very much months in advance
Speaker:before I get something while for actually for your book I pay straight away but for some
Speaker:sometimes there is a.
Speaker:Probably there would be a possibility if I asked if I can pay later because there is a
Speaker:different,
Speaker:different way of managing so so yeah that's, that's, that's a reality as well of shops but
Speaker:if anyone who is listening is has you know I, I know you can.
Speaker:I guess you probably will be.
Speaker:Your book will be deck will be available on
Speaker:the online retailer with a big river in its name and and other big,
Speaker:big online.
Speaker:It's available everywhere.
Speaker:It's available everywhere.
Speaker:But if I because I love small bookstores And I
Speaker:always think that yeah, if anyone.
Speaker:If it's available and also if you have a, you
Speaker:know,
Speaker:lovely bookstore you like and you would like to them to stock it.
Speaker:It's really at least the UK published like UK branch.
Speaker:They are super accommodating.
Speaker:It's super easy to order even if you're a tiny
Speaker:company.
Speaker:If you just want too small amounts at the
Speaker:beginning,
Speaker:it's super easy.
Speaker:So it's not an objection for small shops.
Speaker:I think it should be everywhere.
Speaker:Please order it at your local library because I still get royalties for that and you don't
Speaker:get to pay a thing.
Speaker:Oh, that is wonderful.
Speaker:I may request it in my library which
Speaker:constantly has nothing I want to read.
Speaker:I mean like if there are like new books, it's like oh, three months waiting list or
Speaker:something.
Speaker:Sure, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But that is an idea to request it.
Speaker:That's very good idea.
Speaker:I forgot about royalties from libraries.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Want to support.
Speaker:Yeah. I would say the only thing about decks going back to decks being not being a holy
Speaker:object.
Speaker:But there is one thing which I think brings bad luck.
Speaker:It's buying counterfeit decks.
Speaker:Buying decks which are fake copies of Artists
Speaker:Work.
Speaker:My, My partner is an independent deck creator who I think you know and
Speaker:I've got their decks as well in my shop.
Speaker:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker:That's right, that's right.
Speaker:And they,
Speaker:their deck is constantly being counterfeited and people will email them to be like,
Speaker:I don't understand,
Speaker:like I got your deck, but it's got a totally different guidebook in it.
Speaker:And my partner's like, it's not mine like you bought it from.
Speaker:And people will get very upset with my, with Chase and they'll be like, how dare you.
Speaker:And they're like,
Speaker:you're not.
Speaker:It's.
Speaker:I think some people don't even know that it's counterfeit.
Speaker:Like some people aren't even aware.
Speaker:That's been my secondhand experience with this
Speaker:process is like some people are like,
Speaker:how could you? And it's like, I don't even think they know.
Speaker:Yeah, I can imagine that would kind of tamp down the magic and the medicine a little bit.
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:yeah, it's. It's. Yeah. But yeah, I'm.
Speaker:I'm sure lots of people do it without mean.
Speaker:They just don't know.
Speaker:This is what they.
Speaker:When they Google it, this is what they find because those cheap versions are very often
Speaker:pushed very much higher the Google search and stuff.
Speaker:So they think that's the correct one and it's A lot of.
Speaker:Yeah, I try to do a lot
Speaker:of teaching people that, you know, it's.
Speaker:It's sometimes, if the price is too good to be true, it probably is.
Speaker:Probably.
Speaker:Unfortunately, yes.
Speaker:So thank you very, very much.
Speaker:Thank you so much being such a wonderful guest and sharing so many fantastic insights.
Speaker:And I'm looking forward to your book
Speaker:and your deck and to having them in my hands and to listening to audiobook.
Speaker:Because, by the way, if someone.
Speaker:I love audiobooks.
Speaker:So that was obvious choice.
Speaker:And also, you are reading it, right?
Speaker:Yeah, I am.
Speaker:Which wasn't necessarily obvious from the beginning.
Speaker:That is going to happen.
Speaker:And I think it would have been super weird if
Speaker:it was someone else.
Speaker:You know, that was one of the only things where I was like,
Speaker:you're gonna get.
Speaker:You're gonna get annihilated if I don't do this audiobook recording.
Speaker:Like, I don't have a lot of ego.
Speaker:Like, I'm like,
Speaker:just happy to be in the room.
Speaker:But I was like, it would be a mistake if I did
Speaker:not do this audiobook recording.
Speaker:Like, I have a podcast.
Speaker:People want this.
Speaker:Like, a lot of people.
Speaker:People were very upset with me that it wasn't for sure for a little while.
Speaker:They were like, what do you mean?
Speaker:I was like, I'm like, fielding people who are upset with me.
Speaker:This isn't even my affair.
Speaker:So I'm very glad that I got to do it.
Speaker:It's not a given for all authors.
Speaker:I didn't know that.
Speaker:No. But also, I can see, like, some authors, not necessarily, maybe not don't want it, but
Speaker:also,
Speaker:maybe not everyone can do it.
Speaker:Like, it is a different skill.
Speaker:Totally.
Speaker:And it could be.
Speaker:It could be really.
Speaker:Yeah. Difficult or tiring or not really have the effect if, you know, some people don't.
Speaker:Not everyone is a radio person,
Speaker:but if someone is primarily known for their podcast, it's kind of obvious I'm here.
Speaker:Oh, my God. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker:It's been such a joy.
Speaker:Thank you very, very much.
Speaker:So I hope you loved Lindsay as much as I do.
Speaker:And even if you are a regular fan of perhaps a
Speaker:student of Lindsay,
Speaker:maybe you also learn something new.
Speaker:This whole conversation about the idea of actually leaving the world of Tarot
Speaker:professionally, that is completely new to me.
Speaker:So I'm glad it didn't happen.
Speaker:Hasn't happened.
Speaker:But, yeah,
Speaker:lots of gold.
Speaker:Lots of, you know, wonderful nuggets of wisdom and information.
Speaker:I absolutely enjoy this conversation so much.
Speaker:And the thing that stayed with me the most,
Speaker:I think,
Speaker:is because you Know, it's been a few days since we've talked and I still think about it
Speaker:is this notion that Lindsay had to build a table and a chair for herself in the tarot
Speaker:world because no one really invited them to take part with this kind of approach which is
Speaker:very much non traditional.
Speaker:And that really makes me think about all those things we are doing that sometimes maybe we
Speaker:think we are too much out there.
Speaker:There isn't an audience for it.
Speaker:It's too strange,
Speaker:it's too much against the mainstream will never get anywhere.
Speaker:There won't be ever any public recognition, never any money in has plenty of things I
Speaker:think in everyone's life,
Speaker:things like that.
Speaker:If we try to follow our heart and our own path
Speaker:and our intuition, very often we end up in the situation that there is no room ready for us,
Speaker:there is no table for us.
Speaker:But I think this story is very inspiring because it shows that you know, if you, if you
Speaker:really believe in yourself and if you show up consistently and Lindsay has been showing up
Speaker:consistently for many, many years that you know, there is a chance for recognition, for
Speaker:admiration for a big group of,
Speaker:you know, a team, a crew, a tribe.
Speaker:Whatever way we are, we are actually calling that a whole universe of people who are
Speaker:actually inspired and want to join in and want to sit at this table and this, you know,
Speaker:they pull up their chairs and join you at this table which you build yourself.
Speaker:So I just found it very, very inspiring and just want to leave you with that.
Speaker:And also just a reminder, all the links to all the wonderful people and creations we talked
Speaker:about are in the show notes and that is book by Charlie Clare Burgess and Decks by Ch for
Speaker:his and the Deck by Mari in the sky and the Kickstarter campaign, the recent Kickstarter
Speaker:campaign by Giovanni Amberwolf.
Speaker:So that things we mentioned, if you haven't heard about them, if they are kind of new to
Speaker:you,
Speaker:look into the show notes and they are the links so you can follow what we've been
Speaker:talking about.
Speaker:And the very last thing before I finish lains's book and Deck Tarot for the Wild Soul
Speaker:book and the Soul Tarot deck.
Speaker:As we talked about,
Speaker:they are everywhere.
Speaker:They are mass market published so you can get
Speaker:them in online.
Speaker:Big online retailers in big bookstores.
Speaker:Like we said, if you are an
Speaker:owner of a small bookstore, a librarian
Speaker:or a customer of a small bookstore, you would like this book to see in.
Speaker:Please do recommend it to the booksellers.
Speaker:It's a. I'm sure, I mean as I said, I haven't
Speaker:read it yet but I have a full trust in Lindsay.
Speaker:I know it's going to be a gorgeous book and really dealing with even, even if you are a
Speaker:small business, dealing with those big publishers is actually really easy.
Speaker:And I can tell you from my own experience, because I did that I will be stocking the book
Speaker:and the deck in my little shop.
Speaker:So if you are in the UK follow the link in the show notes to lasvistas.co.uk this is my shop
Speaker:and you can pre order the book and the deck,
Speaker:the tarot for the Wild Soul book and the Soul Tarot deck.
Speaker:Or if you are listening to it later you can just buy it after a publication date.
Speaker:And yeah, I'll be absolutely thrilled if you get it from me.
Speaker:If you are not in the UK that probably makes much more sense to find it in your your
Speaker:country.
Speaker:And as a listener of this podcast,
Speaker:you can use the code podcast10 at checkout in my Las Vistas shop for 10% off your purchase.
Speaker:Whether it's Lindsay's creations or someone else's the shop, the discount is valid across
Speaker:the shop.
Speaker:And there is one more thing about the book or precisely about the audiobook which we
Speaker:mentioned in a conversation with Lindsay.
Speaker:There is also an audiobook version read by Lindsay as it should be.
Speaker:I don't sell audiobooks so I'm not going to recommend you my shop but you can obviously
Speaker:listen to the audiobook wherever you buy audiobooks.
Speaker:But I would like to recommend a particular service which is called Libro FM and it's an
Speaker:American company, it's a small business, small company which is a registered B corp.
Speaker:So they are more ethical than many large audiobook providers and I really, really like
Speaker:them and they do.
Speaker:I mean they will after the launch date have Lindsay's book as well in as an audiobook
Speaker:version.
Speaker:And I already,
Speaker:many months ago I already pre ordered it as an audiobook from Libro FM and I will pop in the
Speaker:link in the show notes.
Speaker:If you haven't had yet chosen an audiobook
Speaker:provider but you are thinking about it because you want to listen to Lindsay's book then
Speaker:please do sign up with my link.
Speaker:I would be super happy.
Speaker:It's an affiliate link and for every person who signs up I get a free audiobook without
Speaker:any cost to you.
Speaker:So that is brilliant.
Speaker:If you are already using Libro FM that's great.
Speaker:You know they are great.
Speaker:You are great, amazing.
Speaker:And if you would prefer any other provider audiobook service, that's also great.
Speaker:Please do listen to Lindsay's book as an audiobook, because I'm imagining it's gonna be
Speaker:absolutely wonderful.
Speaker:So this is it for today.
Speaker:And stay magical until the next.
Speaker:Sam.
