10 | The Gentle Tarot Universe with Mari in the Sky
Meet Mariza Ryce Aparicio-Tovar, better known in the online and Tarot world as Mari in the Sky, the author of the beloved Gentle Tarot and its expanding universe.
We are talking about everything Gentle Tarot: how it started with Mari’s love of art and Alaskan nature, as well as Mexican indigenous cultures, and her quest to find an inclusive, non-patriarchal, and non-capitalist Tarot deck; how the isolated creative practice turned into a community collaboration; and why being an independent Jack-of-all-trades may be the only way to live sustainably as an artist nowadays.
Grab a cup of your favourite tea and keep listening! (Blog post coming soon!)
Mari's decks we talked about:
The Gentle Tarot, First Edition
The Gentle Tarot, Seed Edition
Here is Mari's website. Also, join Mari's Patreon, it's fun! And don't forget to check out her Kickstarter page.
Host: Gosia Rokicka of Las Vistas Tarot & More
This podcast is sponsored by Las Vistas Tarot & More, an online shop with indie Tarot & Oracle Decks. For a 10% discount in the Las Vistas Tarot & More shop exclusive to podcast listeners, use code PODCAST10 at checkout.
Disclaimer:
Tarot readers, healers and practitioners of "woo" can offer valuable support, but they’re not substitutes for licensed mental‑health professionals. Listeners needing therapeutic help should seek accredited counsellors.
What's coming next?
Episode 11. A deep dive into the art and meaning of an often misunderstood Minor Arcana card...
Transcript
Foreign.
Speaker:Magical beings and creatures of the forest.
Speaker:Welcome to Tarot and More podcast.
Speaker:My name is Gosha and I'm your guide here.
Speaker:There was a bit of a break,
Speaker:but I'm back and I've got a wonderful, beautiful conversation for you with someone
Speaker:who is very, very much loved in the Tarot online community and among the collectors of
Speaker:beautiful decks.
Speaker:Marisa Rice Aparicio Tovar,
Speaker:better known in the online and Tarot world as Mari in the sky,
Speaker:the author of the beloved Gentle Tarot and its expanding universe.
Speaker:We are talking about everything Gentle Tarot.
Speaker:How it started with Mari's love of art and Alaskan nature, as well as Mexican indigenous
Speaker:cultures,
Speaker:and her quest to find an inclusive, non patriarchal and non capitalistic Tarot deck,
Speaker:how the isolated creative practise turned into a community collaboration and why being an
Speaker:independent jack of all trades may be the only way to live sustainably as an artist nowadays.
Speaker:So grab a cup of your favourite tea and listen to our conversation.
Speaker:And just in case you are not familiar with Mari and her art and her decks,
Speaker:we are talking about the Gentle Tarot, which is this pillar of Mari's Tarot universe.
Speaker:And the newest iteration of Gentle Tarot is called the Seed Edition and it just
Speaker:Kickstarter for it just ended,
Speaker:so it's now being sent out to people who supported Kickstarter.
Speaker:Another deck we are talking about is My Friend Fire, which is a companion deck to the Gentle
Speaker:Tarot.
Speaker:The previous editions of the Gentle Tarot and
Speaker:My Friend Fire,
Speaker:they are available to buy and all the links to everything we are mentioning are in the show
Speaker:notes.
Speaker:And the last thing I'd like to say before we get on with our conversation is that this
Speaker:podcast, Tarot and More, is sponsored by Las Vistas Tarot and More, which is my online shop
Speaker:with Tarot and Oracle decks.
Speaker:I'm based in the UK but I'm
Speaker:selling also to other countries.
Speaker:Very soon I'll be shipping across the whole world.
Speaker:At the moment, there is a selection of countries, if anything, inspired you.
Speaker:If you'd like to have a look
Speaker:at Mari's decks, the links in the show notes will take you to Las Vista's shop.
Speaker:So welcome Marie in the sky to Tarot and More.
Speaker:Hello Marie, Nice to see you.
Speaker:Nice to have you here on the podcast.
Speaker:Thank you for accepting the invitation.
Speaker:Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker:It's so good to be here with you and yeah, I'm
Speaker:excited.
Speaker:Cool. So I have, you know, I have a lot of questions because obviously your beautiful
Speaker:Gentle Tarot and the whole Universe which you've been creating around it,
Speaker:they've been much loved and in the UK and around the world, they are.
Speaker:They are just such a popular deck and lots of people love it.
Speaker:A bit of a cult following.
Speaker:Could you tell us more about.
Speaker:About this, how it.
Speaker:How it appeared, I mean, about your practise and how art actually exists in your life?
Speaker:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker:Gosh, just hearing you say that, like, made my eyes kind of water because it's.
Speaker:It's hard to.
Speaker:It's still hard to believe sometimes, you
Speaker:know, And I'm really thankful.
Speaker:I'm so thankful.
Speaker:But, yeah, the.
Speaker:The Gentle Tarot really started because I had been using cards for a while, for years,
Speaker:but it was always with other friends that had cards.
Speaker:So I never actually came across a deck that I liked enough to purchase myself, just because
Speaker:there was always something.
Speaker:There was always some,
Speaker:you know, the swords, like the stabbing, and I just.
Speaker:There was just a lot.
Speaker:But I really enjoyed the practise.
Speaker:Like, with my closest friends, we'd get
Speaker:together and just pull cards for each other.
Speaker:And it was always so, like, grounding and
Speaker:powerful to be able to share something that was, like, intuitive and just felt so magical
Speaker:and connected.
Speaker:So it had been part of my life since, like, 2010.
Speaker:It's really when it first started.
Speaker:But it wasn't until 2020 when I started illustrating the Gentle Tarot.
Speaker:And art has always been a part of my life as a child.
Speaker:I mean, I feel like it's probably true for most of us.
Speaker:Like, we, you know, you just.
Speaker:You draw what's around you and I feel like
Speaker:that's how I. I've always.
Speaker:That was always been, like, my grounding, I guess.
Speaker:So, yeah.
Speaker:So art has always been a part of my life.
Speaker:I.
Speaker:My mom has this funny storey where I was little and at the dentist, and the dentist was
Speaker:like, what do you want to be that you grow up? And.
Speaker:I don't know, I don't actually remember the whole storey, but he was like.
Speaker:He was.
Speaker:I was like an artist or something.
Speaker:And I was like, I'm already an artist.
Speaker:And I was like, what,
Speaker:that confident as a child?
Speaker:Like, that's great.
Speaker:So it's just.
Speaker:It's always been really central to, like, who
Speaker:I am.
Speaker:But, you know, over the years, it.
Speaker:It gets put in the background.
Speaker:But I was fortunate to have this job that drops you off in, like, this remote location
Speaker:here in Alaska, different rivers where, you know, we collect data on wild salmon.
Speaker:And it's really isolated, so, like, you don't have Internet, you don't have any kind of
Speaker:connection.
Speaker:And so that kind of work for me was just like,
Speaker:perfect because it was two to four months every summer and it was just like.
Speaker:That was like, creative time, you know, that was like when I could able.
Speaker:When I was able to just really make art and make music.
Speaker:But. Did I answer your question? I don't even know.
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's.
Speaker:That's partially, definitely, but also I
Speaker:actually piqued my interest.
Speaker:What is this job?
Speaker:Is it in, like, conservation or.
Speaker:Yeah, no, it's.
Speaker:It's for the state.
Speaker:This is the best job ever.
Speaker:I love it so much.
Speaker:I wish I could still do it, but.
Speaker:No, it.
Speaker:It is for conservation in a sense, but it's
Speaker:actually for.
Speaker:It's to record the population of salmon that is returning to spawn at the rivers and lakes
Speaker:so that the biologists in the office can decide when to open and close commercial
Speaker:fisheries.
Speaker:So depending on how many salmon are reaching escapement,
Speaker:they calculate how many.
Speaker:How many, you know,
Speaker:pounds of salmon can be harvested sustainably.
Speaker:So it's.
Speaker:It's a commercial fishery,
Speaker:like, part of the State of Alaska Department of Fishing Game.
Speaker:But, yeah, it's.
Speaker:I mean,
Speaker:you get to.
Speaker:I got to just live with the bears and the
Speaker:wolves and I got to see a wolverine.
Speaker:It was just like.
Speaker:It's.
Speaker:It's intense.
Speaker:It's beautiful.
Speaker:It's.
Speaker:Yeah. So that.
Speaker:That's also, I mean,
Speaker:gentle.
Speaker:The world of gentle tarot that comes from
Speaker:that.
Speaker:Am I correct in understanding that what prompted you to.
Speaker:To work on your deck was the fact that the ones you encountered through your friends and
Speaker:shops and everything,
Speaker:they were just not gentle enough, I guess.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And I'm.
Speaker:I mean, it wasn't necessarily.
Speaker:I was looking for a gentle deck, but I just didn't want any colonial patriarchal symbolism
Speaker:or.
Speaker:Or just any.
Speaker:Like.
Speaker:All of that just felt really icky to me and I couldn't ever really seriously take it into my
Speaker:practise if.
Speaker:You know.
Speaker:But, you know, using amongst friends, like, is fine, you know, but.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, because you can.
Speaker:You can always add your own layer to the
Speaker:imagery you've got.
Speaker:But.
Speaker:But yeah, it is.
Speaker:It is much easier to connect with a deck that
Speaker:actually has your values.
Speaker:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker:And it's growing.
Speaker:That gentle tarot is not like a finished
Speaker:product.
Speaker:I'm.
Speaker:I've been following you on Kickstarter and
Speaker:Patreon, and it just seems like it grows to the extent that suddenly you have, you know,
Speaker:someone suggests something or you have a thought and it's Like, I have to rework three
Speaker:cards in the last minute.
Speaker:So it keeps.
Speaker:It keeps evolving.
Speaker:Every new addition, new iteration.
Speaker:It's not only the change in format or in colour of edges or, you know, type of a box,
Speaker:it also.
Speaker:The artwork changes.
Speaker:So do you think it's gonna ever be finished and final?
Speaker:I mean, it honestly doesn't feel like it.
Speaker:It feels like I could just, you know, if I.
Speaker:There's, like, I could just keep, you know, doing that.
Speaker:But in a way it feels.
Speaker:It feels important because, like, we change, you know, like,
Speaker:the world around us changes and we change and it feels important to, like, honour that and
Speaker:give space to that.
Speaker:And I think ultimately I probably need to give
Speaker:myself some more space.
Speaker:But.
Speaker:But,
Speaker:yeah, I feel.
Speaker:I feel like it's just the beginning and like.
Speaker:And like, that's why, like, the seed edition,
Speaker:it feels so, like,
Speaker:good name for it because it's like, okay, the first one was a draught and this one is, like
Speaker:the beginning, you know, and I'm excited for what it becomes because,
Speaker:you know, I feel like maybe all creators of all mediums feel this, but, like, once it's
Speaker:done, you're like, wait, it's not done.
Speaker:But it feels at this point, it does.
Speaker:Like, I. It does feel really good and I'm.
Speaker:I'm really happy with the colour changes
Speaker:and the art changes and,
Speaker:yeah,
Speaker:I'm awaiting my.
Speaker:My deck and also the,
Speaker:you know, the small first batch which I got for the shop.
Speaker:But, yeah, it's.
Speaker:It's quite exciting and I love the colour.
Speaker:I love the.
Speaker:The purple periwinkle.
Speaker:It's very, very lovely.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:So. But also the.
Speaker:Not a new thing, which is, you know, new
Speaker:because it's like a couple of months old really,
Speaker:since it's been five published is you're my friend Fire,
Speaker:which is the first companion Oracle deck to Gentle Tarot.
Speaker:So, like, expansion on this universe and like,
Speaker:how this came about, like, how.
Speaker:How can you.
Speaker:Can you speak about a bit more, like, whether Tarot needed,
Speaker:you know, another set of cards?
Speaker:Yeah, so actually, when I was.
Speaker:When I was creating the Gentle Tarot,
Speaker:like, studying each archetype and just going through the whole 78, I didn't.
Speaker:Yeah, I'm really good at side storeys, but I'm gonna just try to answer your question.
Speaker:Side storeys are great.
Speaker:No worries my brain.
Speaker:But anyway, so.
Speaker:So yeah, while I was creating the Gentle Tarot, I started taking notes of, like,
Speaker:think, like, more that I. Like, there was just more that I wanted from.
Speaker:From a deck.
Speaker:I didn't know that I could alter the tarot, like, even with adding the unseen, like that
Speaker:bonus card, I was like, not even on my mind, like, what, I get an extra car?
Speaker:Like, it wasn't until the back room suggested it that, you know, I was like, oh, okay.
Speaker:So it just felt like a separate project, you know, like, it already felt like, okay, this
Speaker:is big enough to be something else.
Speaker:I don't know what it's going to be.
Speaker:I don't know when it's going to be.
Speaker:But it was really helpful to, like, not only during the creation of the Gentle Tarot, to
Speaker:jot down those notes, but also just, like, through life, like, I would be living and then
Speaker:there would be, like, a moment and I'm like, this is a card right now.
Speaker:Like, this.
Speaker:This needs to be.
Speaker:This needs to be part of that project.
Speaker:So it's just over time,
Speaker:it had a substantial list of these cards.
Speaker:And it wasn't until a couple, like two or three years later that I. I had enough to,
Speaker:like, really sit down and, like, figure out what it wanted to be.
Speaker:So it's.
Speaker:Well, obviously it's.
Speaker:It's the fire, the element of fire.
Speaker:But it's a very expansive storey in it.
Speaker:It's like, lots of parts, themes.
Speaker:It is complex.
Speaker:Also, I think you were kind of advertising it
Speaker:as a first expansion for the Gentle Tarot.
Speaker:And also the fact it's a fire and it's an
Speaker:element and we've got three more elements just makes me think,
Speaker:are they gonna form up a group of air and air and water and.
Speaker:What else?
Speaker:Spirit.
Speaker:A spirit.
Speaker:Oh, God, there'll be five.
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:yeah,
Speaker:yeah.
Speaker:I mean, I guess with my friend fire,
Speaker:you know, the.
Speaker:The element came later.
Speaker:So, like, I had this deck and then I started
Speaker:to see categories.
Speaker:Like, the suit started coming up for the different cards that I had listed.
Speaker:But I was also going through my own, like, really intense physical healing journey just
Speaker:with, like, my body and just, like, a lot of things.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:And I really feel like there's.
Speaker:All the elements are in my friend fire.
Speaker:Like, you have water and air and earth and.
Speaker:And I really think that's important for.
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:Anyway, that's like another.
Speaker:Another question conversation.
Speaker:Keep going.
Speaker:But it's important to me that all those elements are also present because, like,
Speaker:they're related and they're interconnected.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:And that's how it feels whole to me.
Speaker:But ultimately, like, the direction of my
Speaker:front fire is, like, tending to that inner flame and, like, just keep, like,
Speaker:Supporting that spark because.
Speaker:Yeah, it's.
Speaker:It's. It's been a really challenging reality
Speaker:and it seems to get more and more
Speaker:challenging and I. Yeah, it's not getting better now.
Speaker:Yeah, so.
Speaker:So once I realised that the L, that it had an element and that it was going to be fire,
Speaker:at that point I was like, full inside, like this Oracle deck creation world, which I
Speaker:hadn't been in before because I had only the gentle tarot.
Speaker:So, like creating this, like, altern.
Speaker:I don't even like the word oracle, but, like, just like creating an, like this non tarot
Speaker:deck was just like, so open and so free and like, much more intuitive.
Speaker:It's like a different.
Speaker:It's like playing a different instrument or something, like, completely.
Speaker:And then I just.
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, I felt.
Speaker:I felt.
Speaker:I felt like I was in my element while doing
Speaker:that and it felt very freeing.
Speaker:So then,
Speaker:like, other cards for other elements started to come up and I started to write those down.
Speaker:So, yeah, that's.
Speaker:That's how that happened.
Speaker:And I like this.
Speaker:So that.
Speaker:Because what you said before at the beginning, that, you know, as children we all draw and
Speaker:we.
Speaker:We all make art and, you know, it's so great
Speaker:that you've stayed with it for, you know, as an adult, but loads of people don't, and not
Speaker:necessarily.
Speaker:It's usually, I think, because they were told they were not good enough.
Speaker:Like,
Speaker:lots of kids, I get, okay, these ones can draw and these ones, like, do something else when,
Speaker:you know, when we go to school.
Speaker:And I think it's a bit of this image of fire that keeps this part of the artistic part of
Speaker:us alive.
Speaker:I quite like that as well, that.
Speaker:I love that it's an important part.
Speaker:Artistic practise and creative practise for everyone I think is important.
Speaker:And lots of people just push it away.
Speaker:So I kind of like thinking about it, like, also this little fire of inspiration for
Speaker:everyone.
Speaker:And you, like, you seem to.
Speaker:From the outside, it looks like that you like
Speaker:the collaboration aspect of creating, right? Because you have the really vibrant community
Speaker:and you seem to be helping for a lot of decisions.
Speaker:Like, guys, do you prefer this?
Speaker:I listen to actual feedback.
Speaker:Yeah, no, I do.
Speaker:I love it.
Speaker:I just.
Speaker:With the gentle tarot, I didn't have that, you
Speaker:know, it was just me.
Speaker:I had my office, like, nine to five job.
Speaker:I was just in my truck, like, drawing and my
Speaker:lunch break, and like, I didn't have anywhere to reflect, you know, the process or the
Speaker:decisions.
Speaker:So really, with my friend Fire, it definitely felt collaborative.
Speaker:And.
Speaker:And I just.
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:It's like.
Speaker:It's. I wish we were all in person, you know, and, like, sharing each other, like, all of
Speaker:our projects, you know,
Speaker:but it's just been.
Speaker:It's just really like.
Speaker:It just feels.
Speaker:I think the feeling of community also feels
Speaker:really important, and I. I really do take feedback seriously,
Speaker:and it just feels special.
Speaker:It feels extra special, you know, and, like,
Speaker:some of our Patreon members are, like, models or their cat is a model.
Speaker:And it's like.
Speaker:It just feels good to, like, include,
Speaker:um,
Speaker:those connections.
Speaker:It just feels more special to me.
Speaker:But also, I feel like the work that I'm creating if, like, the.
Speaker:The main thing for me is, like, energetically, you know, like, what does this image
Speaker:communicate energetically? So I feel like having,
Speaker:like, I feel so lucky to have this community where I could reflect those things.
Speaker:And, like, you know, like, how does it feel? And, you know, like, with the rage card, for
Speaker:example, you know, like, that one is a little strong.
Speaker:And we got feedback that it was.
Speaker:It was too much for some folks.
Speaker:So it's like, okay, like, I can.
Speaker:I can have an alternative.
Speaker:And, like.
Speaker:But otherwise, I probably wouldn't have, like,
Speaker:if I didn't ask,
Speaker:I probably wouldn't put any alternative.
Speaker:You know what I mean?
Speaker:I would just do what I would want.
Speaker:But it feels good to just, like, make it as
Speaker:accessible as possible.
Speaker:Yeah, especially it's just impossible to see on your own everything, like, you have an idea
Speaker:and very often is, like,
Speaker:just the feedback from a different perspective of different experience, and just you don't
Speaker:have access to it.
Speaker:Like, none of us have access to all the
Speaker:experiences.
Speaker:So, yeah, I.
Speaker:I found it very interesting because I. I missed the fact that there would be two cards
Speaker:of certain.
Speaker:Certain cards.
Speaker:So when I got my deck, I
Speaker:was like, oh, there.
Speaker:And I could see then that.
Speaker:I could see that, okay, they have a different
Speaker:vibe.
Speaker:So that's.
Speaker:That's.
Speaker:They may be more suitable for this or that person, like,
Speaker:or even the same person on the different day,
Speaker:how we feel.
Speaker:So I think that's great.
Speaker:And you mentioned as well that you kind of didn't like the colonial, patriarchal vibes of
Speaker:many decks.
Speaker:Definitely.
Speaker:There is a lot of indigenous culture in your decks and nature as well.
Speaker:Could you speak a bit about this cultural.
Speaker:The human part of the decks?
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:well,
Speaker:I feel like.
Speaker:Like, I'm creating work that's just, like.
Speaker:It's from my heart.
Speaker:It's like, from my being and from, like, my world of view.
Speaker:And my, My family is from.
Speaker:From Mexico and we.
Speaker:We are indigenous, but, like, have been detribalized.
Speaker:So, like,
Speaker:there's been, like, there's a gap, you know,
Speaker:and that, that is hard.
Speaker:But also I feel really lucky that my mother
Speaker:that raised me,
Speaker:my sister's mom, so I was raised.
Speaker:So I have two moms.
Speaker:So my mom that raised me was always very, very, very connected to indigenous practise.
Speaker:So I grew up around a lot of ceremony and just like this, this world view and perspective.
Speaker:And I feel like ultimately what's communicated in the decks is like, you know, our
Speaker:relationship to the natural world and our responsibility, but also just like that there
Speaker:is like, that divide is not.
Speaker:Yeah, to live.
Speaker:To live in a way that's.
Speaker:It's like we're part.
Speaker:And we, you know, take care.
Speaker:So, like, it's a. It's that kind of relationship that I feel like is communicated
Speaker:through the deck.
Speaker:Not intentional.
Speaker:It wasn't like, okay, I'm going to do this this way.
Speaker:It's just like, no, I'm going to do this.
Speaker:This is just coming from my heart and that's what my heart,
Speaker:you know.
Speaker:So I feel very fortunate to have been raised connected to my indigenous roots and then also
Speaker:as an adult to like, further connect.
Speaker:But it is.
Speaker:I also understand, like, how lucky that is, you know, because there's a lot of people from
Speaker:my generation that even within my own family.
Speaker:And it's.
Speaker:It's just like, I,
Speaker:Yeah, I just.
Speaker:I feel it's almost like a wound that needs
Speaker:healing and I feel like creating art that honours.
Speaker:That helps.
Speaker:Helps, you know, helps them.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Because, I mean, I. I don't know much of history of Mexico in that respect, but I can
Speaker:imagine that there was a lot of like, like you said, tribalizing people and just getting them
Speaker:disconnecting from living sort of Western Western life and.
Speaker:And disconnecting completely from this culture and history.
Speaker:But I.
Speaker:I mean, I hope I'm not wrong, but I have a feeling that now around the world there is far
Speaker:more like people.
Speaker:People even younger than us, they just get more and more connected to their roots,
Speaker:wherever their roots are.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Just there is this more acknowledgment that this is equally valid way of living or maybe
Speaker:even more valid,
Speaker:but at least equally Val.
Speaker:And. And people are not embarrassed and they are not made embarrassed of like, oh,
Speaker:no, you should be Western.
Speaker:You can't be dressed like, oh, yeah, that.
Speaker:Or whatever.
Speaker:And it's.
Speaker:It's a beautiful thing, you know, and even to
Speaker:have you know, in the popular mainstream media to have indigenous people and it's just like,
Speaker:it's like.
Speaker:Yeah, so it's, it's good.
Speaker:It feels good.
Speaker:I guess that's also why so many people connect with your decks.
Speaker:And not only indigenous people, just generally people have far more interest now in, in
Speaker:culture, which is not necessarily, you know,
Speaker:European American,
Speaker:white American.
Speaker:So that's, that's brilliant.
Speaker:And do you have a favourite card in Tarot or in your own deck or in Tarot in general?
Speaker:I get the first one that comes to mind is the Tower.
Speaker:I really, really love the Tower in other decks as well.
Speaker:I don't know if I can say it's like my favourite favourite because it's hard to have
Speaker:one favourite.
Speaker:But I do love the Tower and I also love it in
Speaker:the Gentle Tarot, especially the seed edition.
Speaker:But the Moon also has a special place for my heart from the Gentle Tarot.
Speaker:Just because that was the very first one that was illustrated.
Speaker:But yeah, I would probably say those two.
Speaker:And the five of Thunder.
Speaker:The five of them.
Speaker:Oh, I love also the.
Speaker:That some of them have names changed, but Thunder is a, is a really good name.
Speaker:And also speaking about names, the fact that code cards.
Speaker:Well, I guess this kind of is on this level of patriarchal traditional culture because
Speaker:obviously code cards, even the name code cards or a face card,
Speaker:they are obviously called kings, queens and pages and knights.
Speaker:So it's quite refreshing to have them change to nature and plant growing names.
Speaker:And are there any cards that were particularly challenging to illustrate?
Speaker:Yes, there were.
Speaker:I feel like the heavier cards, like the ten of Thunder, which is the ten of swords or the ten
Speaker:of wands,
Speaker:even the nine of Thunder, which is the nine of swords, like just like those heavier themed
Speaker:ones.
Speaker:Like, I really wanted to maintain the,
Speaker:like the,
Speaker:the deeper aspects of them,
Speaker:you know, without making them too gentle.
Speaker:You know, I feel like that's a. It's a really
Speaker:hard balance.
Speaker:I love, I love how they came out in the Gentle Tarot.
Speaker:But I think, you know, even with my.
Speaker:From fire, like that balance of like having
Speaker:the deeper themes and questions there, but like not have it be too.
Speaker:It's like it's, it's like.
Speaker:Or to, you know, I just.
Speaker:It's a hard balance.
Speaker:So I feel like that,
Speaker:that that is where I,
Speaker:I feel the most challenge.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Because. Because I don't, I don't want the, I don't want people to disregard my front fire
Speaker:as like too light or too.
Speaker:Because really the, the things that were going on like in the creation of that were so
Speaker:intense and just like really hard.
Speaker:We all have those feelings and those experiences.
Speaker:So it's.
Speaker:It's difficult to create a deck which is like
Speaker:encompassing the life experience of people with like disregarding the.
Speaker:The hard experiences because then it's.
Speaker:It's very.
Speaker:It becomes a bit superficial.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:But I can imagine that you don't want them to
Speaker:be scary at the same time and it just.
Speaker:It's a hard balance.
Speaker:Effy. Yeah, I mean, the transformation suit of my friend Fire, like helps because it's like I
Speaker:do feel like I am able to get some there that,
Speaker:you know, are what they need to be.
Speaker:But.
Speaker:But then there's other ones that aren't so, you know,
Speaker:like intense in that sense.
Speaker:But like, still I want the art to communicate
Speaker:something deeper.
Speaker:So I feel like I'm still finding my voice.
Speaker:I'm still like finding like finding my craft to be able to communicate the way I want to
Speaker:with the art.
Speaker:So I guess we can expect a second and third and fourth iteration of My friend Fire.
Speaker:I don't.
Speaker:I'm not saying that.
Speaker:I'm not saying that.
Speaker:I think in the.
Speaker:The future elemental to come is when I love.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And speaking of my friend Fire, I mean some like, Some cards are, yeah, speaking to a very
Speaker:precise like Rage for example, or Rest.
Speaker:They speak about an experience which is quite
Speaker:clearly.
Speaker:You know, you pull a card and you can definitely see what it is about and what even
Speaker:the word means.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:But some of them are quite out there.
Speaker:And my.
Speaker:My favourite example, which I. And I think I heard it from, like saw it on the Internet.
Speaker:Also comments like.
Speaker:And other people asking, which I think is the
Speaker:one which everyone thinks very cute is ethereal backpack with a lemming.
Speaker:It's like he's the cutest part ever, but also not that obvious.
Speaker:Not like rage or Rest.
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:that was the.
Speaker:The ethereal backpack.
Speaker:Lemon was one that I had actually X'd.
Speaker:Like I was gonna get rid of that.
Speaker:Like I. I went through the whole deck at one point I went through the whole deck and I
Speaker:thought like half of them were gonna be gone,
Speaker:but.
Speaker:But yeah, the lemming,
Speaker:he's just so round.
Speaker:He's like in the little backpack.
Speaker:I just feel like it is a heavier topic.
Speaker:You know, it's like it has these deeper questions, but I guess ultimately I just
Speaker:wanted to them to be approached.
Speaker:Approached with like if there's can be a little spark of joy before like approaching
Speaker:these heavier questions, maybe it'll be easier to like, you know, be kind and patient with
Speaker:yourself.
Speaker:But,
Speaker:but I still feel like it's, it's, it's a, it's a shaky line to walk of, like how to
Speaker:communicate it in the best way.
Speaker:It is.
Speaker:Feel like it's like, you know, like you think
Speaker:about backpack and then baggage, like light baggage,
Speaker:but then you see this lemming, super cute lemming with like super cute backpack, and you
Speaker:think, ah,
Speaker:well, my baggage is not that heavy.
Speaker:It's very, very sweet.
Speaker:Yeah, I guess I wanted him to be like inspiring, you know, like he's happy, he's
Speaker:small, like he's going from place to place and I don't know,
Speaker:bumbling along, bumbling along,
Speaker:carrying all this stuff.
Speaker:No, I think, I think it's super cool.
Speaker:And in general, like, lots of those cards are just.
Speaker:I love.
Speaker:I mean, I recorded three episodes about the
Speaker:deck.
Speaker:I mean, I just couldn't stop.
Speaker:I was staring at every card and each of them,
Speaker:you know, thinking of all the elements on the pictures, I think they are just so rich in the
Speaker:levels of interpretation and, and just what they can mean.
Speaker:I just love them.
Speaker:And I think it's, it makes sense that in a way
Speaker:it's, it's far freer practise because tarot obviously have this structure and yes, you
Speaker:can,
Speaker:it's, you know, you can rename the cards, you can add a card or two,
Speaker:but essentially to stay a tarot, it has to have this structure,
Speaker:some kind of structure.
Speaker:Well, if it's your own deck, it can be
Speaker:anything.
Speaker:And,
Speaker:and it's, it's.
Speaker:Yeah, it's, it's really cool.
Speaker:And so I just like one, One more question which is more practical about like your, your
Speaker:actual practise,
Speaker:not in terms of art, but in terms of executing this art, because you are, you are a fiercely
Speaker:independent person.
Speaker:I think there was, I think I read somewhere
Speaker:that you did have offers to this deck with the publisher and you refused.
Speaker:And you're going through this,
Speaker:I mean,
Speaker:saga of Kickstarter every time.
Speaker:I find, I mean, I support quite a few artists,
Speaker:mostly tarot decks on Kickstarter and as a user, as a supporter, I find it so confusing.
Speaker:Like really.
Speaker:And I don't know how people really like go through this when they are not like
Speaker:professional project managers or something.
Speaker:So it requires, I guess, a lot of, you know, a lot of work.
Speaker:You can't just be.
Speaker:I'm an.
Speaker:An artist and I'm just going to draw.
Speaker:You just have to do all of these other things,
Speaker:including packing, packing boxes.
Speaker:So why is it so important? What are the trade offs that put you off from
Speaker:collaborating with a publisher? What is it that you're still going through
Speaker:this?
Speaker:Well,
Speaker:I mean, I really, I was launched into this business without any experience at all.
Speaker:No, I didn't even know what a Kickstarter was.
Speaker:And I feel like after doing my first Kickstarter, that's when the publishers showed
Speaker:up.
Speaker:But really the offer,
Speaker:like their offers are just, it's just not sustainable for my livelihood.
Speaker:You know, like, if I wanted this to become my livelihood, which it was rapidly becoming,
Speaker:like,
Speaker:like having to give them the rights to my work, just wouldn't, it just wouldn't pay the
Speaker:bills.
Speaker:You know, it may pay the bills for a couple
Speaker:months, but then what?
Speaker:You know, like, I can't, I can't, you know, and it did.
Speaker:It also just felt unfair, really, like the conditions and I was just like, I, it made me
Speaker:sad that, like, that's the way it works in the world, you know, Like, I feel like artists and
Speaker:creators should be able to sustain themselves off of their work.
Speaker:So initially I just, it wasn't a choice because of that.
Speaker:And then, you know,
Speaker:a lot of things get out of your hands, you know, like the cardstock, the finish.
Speaker:And I feel like it's just, I don't know, it's like, it's like you're a baby almost and you
Speaker:want,
Speaker:you just, you want it to be the highest quality and you want it to make people happy.
Speaker:And,
Speaker:and I feel very, very, very fortunate to have the support that I've had these last, like
Speaker:five years.
Speaker:It's.
Speaker:I can't even believe that it's been that long.
Speaker:But yeah, it feels important to, to not let
Speaker:like these very capitalistic systems just like take.
Speaker:And then I, I don't know, it just.
Speaker:And it is a lot of work.
Speaker:Like, I, I feel like the, the I, I work
Speaker:between 12 to 14 hours a day and it's not,
Speaker:I'm not exaggerating because there is so much that goes on and I'm still really trying to
Speaker:find a balance with that because it's not, it's not good for my health, but there's a
Speaker:lot.
Speaker:I wish there was more space for just creating and not having to think about all the other
Speaker:steps, but it is hard work.
Speaker:But it is really worth it to me because being
Speaker:independent is just,
Speaker:you know, it's like all these decisions and then like, so like the decisions happening in
Speaker:Patreon and say these are our decisions like nobody else.
Speaker:It just feels really, like special and being able to, you know, like have the community on
Speaker:Patreon or even, you know, backers on Kickstarter, it's like, it's like you feel
Speaker:like you're.
Speaker:You're creating something with the community and
Speaker:they are really waiting for it.
Speaker:And, you know, people get more invested if
Speaker:they had a say on something.
Speaker:Everyone is like,
Speaker:sometimes gets into argument, like, why is it taking so long?
Speaker:Why did they get it quicker than we did? And people really get,
Speaker:get, you know, very passionate about it.
Speaker:But yeah, it is, it is a very sad aspect that
Speaker:if you.
Speaker:That artists are not.
Speaker:Well, just basically it's about money.
Speaker:They're just not getting paid enough.
Speaker:Because also the publisher,
Speaker:if they want, they seem to all the decks which are published like a officially by the big
Speaker:publishers, they are usually actually a worse quality.
Speaker:I mean, they are not bad quality and they have beautiful art and so on.
Speaker:But very often it's like saving money on the cardstock,
Speaker:printing less in a less sustainable way, packaging in less sustainable way, and just
Speaker:like chipping off these costs and making things maybe,
Speaker:maybe financially more accessible to people.
Speaker:But then in the long term,
Speaker:I don't think it is.
Speaker:I think, I think, okay, the independently
Speaker:published decks are quite expensive objectively,
Speaker:but,
Speaker:you know, no one needs hundreds of Tarot decks.
Speaker:I mean, maybe, maybe it's better to actually save up for one you really love than buy five
Speaker:from AliExpress's team or somewhere.
Speaker:It's a hard balance, to be honest, but I understand.
Speaker:It totally makes sense that.
Speaker:But it's still more freedom, even with 15
Speaker:hours of packing and doing admins.
Speaker:It's hard.
Speaker:It's hard.
Speaker:Thank you very, very much for, for, you know, meeting with me and talking all about that and
Speaker:yeah,
Speaker:I'm awaiting the seed edition and the guidebook and.
Speaker:Yeah, and everything else which you're gonna put out as well.
Speaker:Thank you for having me and thank you for being on my Patreon and I appreciate you like,
Speaker:you know, being a retailer partner too.
Speaker:It's.
Speaker:It's really,
Speaker:really special.
Speaker:Thank you very much and this is it for today.
Speaker:I hope you enjoy this conversation with Mari.
Speaker:And if you didn't know Gentle Tarot before, I
Speaker:hope you feel inspired to have a look.
Speaker:And if you did,
Speaker:and you know Mary and you were a fan,
Speaker:I hope you enjoyed the conversation.
Speaker:In the show notes, you will find the links to the decks, but also you'll find a link to
Speaker:Mary's website and to her Patreon, which I very, very much recommend joining and There is
Speaker:a free tier as well, and obviously there are tiers to support Mary financially,
Speaker:and it's an absolutely wonderful, beautiful community.
Speaker:Yeah. And also the Kickstarter.
Speaker:I'm going to also add the link to Mary's
Speaker:profile on Kickstarter because this is the way she's actually launching her decks.
Speaker:So it's always good to keep an eye.
Speaker:Okay. I think the next time I will
Speaker:talk about a card, I will do
Speaker:a deep dive into a particular card, and it's not going to be the
Speaker:full and it's not going to be
Speaker:even a major arcana, actually.
Speaker:It's a card which is very often
Speaker:misunderstood and not particularly liked, but I do like it.
Speaker:And I would like to take you
Speaker:on a journey through several decks,
Speaker:18 at least, maybe more, and tell you how this card is imagined by the authors of those decks
Speaker:and what we can learn about a particular card from the imagination of very different people
Speaker:who are illustrating it.
Speaker:So, yeah,
Speaker:I hope it will be interesting for you.
Speaker:I really, really love comparing different
Speaker:decks and getting to know a particular card through the lens of very, very diverse
Speaker:interpretations.
Speaker:Okay,
Speaker:so that's it for today.
Speaker:And stay magical,
Speaker:Sam.
